DAAG: INTERVIEWS: FRED GAMBINO

I'd like to begin this interview by asking you about the "soul" and subject matter of the type of art Fantasy Artists engage in. To begin with, as an artist you don't really select the subject you have to create but the writer does. In this, the artist is at the mercy of the writer with respect to the subject matter that appears on canvas. Would you agree with this?

Well, yes and no. Sometimes the publisher will send a manuscript with no other direction. It's then up to me to read it and decide what to illustrate. Other times they will send a synopsis giving me a brief outline of what they want in the image. Sometimes they will refer to an image that I have already done and say; "we want it like this". At any rate, writers don't always spend a lot of time describing some elements. "The space craft was a short cylinder with stubby wings," for example. It leaves a lot to my discretion. In fact there have been occasions where I've done my best to match the author's description only to have the art department tell me to alter it because they think the description won't help to sell the book. In all this, rarely does the writer have any say unless they are very big names.

Well, as I've said, a lot is left up to me, really. However, any artist looks for inspiration from somewhere and I, for one, need that starting impetus to do anything at all. When all is said and done, you have to remember that we are in the business of selling a product. They aren't paying us to produce "art" whatever your definition of "art" is. They are paying us to shift units [sell copy]. If someone wants to call it "art" after that, that's up to them.

Oh yes, I'm not saying there is no creative output on my part, as I thought I said. Often it's left almost entirely up to me what goes on the cover. The client comes to me because they have seen what I do and so have a good idea what to expect. As long as what I come up with isn't too far from that, there usually isn't a problem. What they are looking for is an image which conveys the contents of the book in a way that will persuade consumers to buy. There have been times when a known style is such a sure seller that they have put that style on the cover, even if -- dare I say it -- it has little to do with the content. Chris Fosse's work in the UK in the seventies is a good example. Frazzeta's work was such a sure seller at about the same time that they were commissioning him to do paintings that they later wrote the novel around.

As to what is art, I don't presume to know. To some people it's a pair of knickers on an unmade bed or a pickled shark; to some it's a beautifully crafted, highly finished representation of reality. Art is whatever is fashionable at any given time but I suspect only true art stands the test of time. In this respect only future generations will be able to look back at what we are doing now and know.

At the beginning of the century the work of the Victorian painter Alma Tardema could be picked up for a song, despite him having a very successful career in his lifetime. Now they fetch millions. Van Gogh could hardly give his pictures away in his lifetime, but now they go for sums that would build a hospital wing.

I know that this sits uncomfortably with some people. When I started my career I shared a studio with a local landscape painter and to make ends meet I had a stint as a landscape painter myself. I did pretty well at it and sold most of my output. During one exhibition a buyer approached me and said, " When you're out there painting, is it the light, the sky, the mood of the day that captivates you? What is it that motivates you?" I answered, "Well, I think that this one will pay the electricity bill, this one the gas bill.."

What you seem to be saying is that Principle is unimportant as long as you can pay the bills. But didn't Van Gogh paint precisely because he was a true artist and not concerned about such things as monetary compensation? I mean, he put so much of his soul into his art that he became ill! I don't think Leonardo Davinci painted for the sole sake of income as can be seen by his scant output. Isn't there room for the love of art for art's sake in an illustrator's mind? Does he always have to create for the sake of the buck? You come across as if saying that the dollar (or Euro, in your case) is the most important factor of the art being produced.

Yes, I'm a mercenary b********. Seriously, of course, if I worked at a car plant or something, I would be painting or working on a computer in my spare time. I think one is driven to do these things to some extent. I count myself extremely lucky to be able to make a living doing something I enjoy. Personally I just don't think much further about it than that.

It's only out of the question until a client finds one day that it sells more books than a realistic cover, and then all they will want is impressionistic paintings. I'm sorry if I sound mercenary about this but it is the reality of the situation. Generally, illustrators who aren't fulfilled by their commercial work find relief in painting their own uncommissioned work. Personally I don't feel the need, partly because I have been fortunate so far as to have very little extra time to do other work but mainly because the work I get asked to do is by and large exactly what I want to do. A happy artist am I, what more could you ask! I'm not trying to say that I don't value what I do. Of course my ego gets massaged when I get asked to do interviews and I still get a frisson of excitement when I post a print that someone from a far flung corner of the globe has asked for. The thought that the image is going to hang on someone's wall who will hopefully get a lot of enjoyment out of it, that's great, but it's always a bonus.

The Hobbit, the prelude to Lord of The Rings, was originally published by Allen & Unwin on September 21st, 1937. According to Tolkien scholar, Douglas A. Anderson, the first printing of that book was small (about 1,500 copies). It was a hardback with 10 black & white illustrations and two maps drawn by Tolkien himself. Would this mean that Fantasy art began in 1937, when The Hobbit first came out?

No. I didn't mean that really, only fantasy art in the modern context. I guess the works of Robert E Howard as personified by Frank Frazzetta were also seminal. But you could argue that religious depictions by the old masters were also fantasy art and probably all the way back to some of the early caveman paintings that seem to depict other worldly events.

Apart from Neolithic man you mean? I think I probably answered that in previous two questions. In the modern context it must have started with the pulp magazines in the forties and fifties, which really gave rise to the whole Science Fiction, Fantasy concept.

It would seem that the human race has always had the need for "some other place" to escape to. In earlier times it may have stemmed from a need to explain the world around them and their purpose in it and today the best Science Fiction can be very useful for describing our society and lives by stepping outside and looking back. But we also just need to escape the mundane in life every now and again and imagine places where heroic deeds are still done and where it's clear who the good guys are. I guess other genres fulfill this need also, the Western for example.

Some say that religion is a "crutch" for weak people. But when examined within the context of thousands of years of history, religion has served a very useful and vital function in society, both primitive and modern. In fact, I'd say that it is an absolutely essential need for the human being to believe in something greater than himself. Would you agree that Fantasy Art somewhat fulfills this need? Do you think illustrators are aware of this when working on a piece? To what extent?

Yes, in a somewhat spiritually bemused, largely secular society, people still need something other than themselves to believe in. Something grander that gives meaning to their lives. Fantasy fills this need somewhat, as does belief in Flying saucers, The Bermuda triangle, Chariots of the Gods and conspiracy theories. But beyond it all people just need escapism; the same thing that the ancient stories around campfires must have fulfilled.

Around 1938, a decade before the existence of national programs for rockets and satellite flight, Chesley Bonestell rocked the world with his illustrations for H. G. Wells' "War of the Worlds," "When Worlds Collide," and "Destination Moon", among others. Bonestell painted astronomical scenes and space flight, creating some of his most compelling works of manned visits to the Moon and planets, which were published in major publications like Life Magazine, Scientific American, and Astounding Science Fiction. These illustrations by Bonestell stimulated scientific imagination to such a point where serious scientists started believing it possible to inhabit other planets. We have already sent men to the moon and now we've got robots on Mars. Do you agree that illustrators have a great social responsibility to become, through their art, sources of inspiration for human progress? Wouldn't you say that it would be imposing a great burden on humanity being an illustrator who doesn't care about such things?

I'm pretty sure that illustrators, even greats like Bonestell, were driven by other more pressing considerations than the future of mankind. In the end one is compelled to produce images that inspire oneself and if in the course of that you inspire others, well that's a bonus. The same can be said of other art forms, by the way, that reach a much wider audience today -- Star Trek and Star Wars, for example, have inspired a whole new generation of physicists and space researchers.

Everyone has there own motivations. Illustration, by it's very nature, is commercial, although I suspect a lot of the old masters would have laughed their socks off at the thought of art for arts sake. All I can speak of is my personal view and that is, I think illustration is a very enjoyable way for me to make a living. I don't claim it be anything other than it is, if others see something beyond it's original raison d'etre, that's great.

On my last visit to a local bookstore here in California I was browsing books on the Fantasy Art shelves and was truly amazed at the quality of the art on each book jacket cover. Such cover art brings a book alive! When I searched for the name of the artist (or illustrator, which to me is one and the same thing) in that book I had to really look hard to find it. One book had Donato Giancola's name on the back jacket. But the name was printed in such small font that it was difficult to make out. I immediately thought of how unfair it was that the artist should get such little credit for all his mastery and hardwork. My thought was that perhaps publishers should have a little more courtesy toward the artist by adding one extra page in a book with a biography and other information on the artist. This would be a true mark of appreciation toward the artist. You've done bookcovers. What's your take on this? Why don't artists include a clause in their contracts to book publishers that any book with that artist's artwork have a page dedicated to the artist?

Not all writers or publishers like to give credit to artists. I guess the art here is really the book; the illustration is, at best, an extra. Some writers don't like to think that their sales are down to the art department. I think this attitude is more prevalent in the UK than the States. I did a series of covers for the UK which really increased the sales. The writer really liked them and sent a message to the editor saying what a good job the art department had made. The editor replied saying yes, pats on the back all round. At no time did they mention the artist, although it was me that decided what the content of the images was to be. They simply sent me the books with an open brief. I only saw the communication because the art director passed it on to me. You can bet though, that if the sales had gone the wrong way, it would have been the illustrator's poor work that was at fault.

Frankly I'm sanguine about it all. It's nice to get a credit but I don't really care. I still have the image to promote myself in other ways and any fans who are interested can find out easily enough who did what. If the covers continue to sell the books, they will carry on giving me work, if they don't, they won't. That's the only credit I really care about because it's the one that pays the bills.

I understand the impetus to do what has to be done in order to pay the bills. Still, I feel it is a great disrespect to the artist the way publishers neglect them. What if you were to add that "clause" I mentioned in your contract? What if you were to obligate the book publisher to add a page about the bookcover artist within the book? What do you think would be the publisher's reaction? If your name was powerful enough in the world of bookcover art, wouldn't you have enough clout to be able to bring about this change to the publishing industry? This would be a big breakthrough for illustrators worldwide, wouldn't it?

What you propose would not sit well with the editors or writers and I personally would agree with them. As I say, the artwork in question here is the novel, not the cover. If you want your name on the cover, then you need to get your own book published as a lot of the more successful illustrators have done. You would have to be a very big name, indeed, to get what you propose to happen and I don't think there is an illustrator alive today that carries that kind of clout, especially given the increased use of image bank photos manipulated inhouse, that is the current growing trend with publishers on both sides of the Atlantic.

I am not an illustrator myself and, therefore, have never been hired to do artwork for a publisher. You, on the other hand, are a professional illustrator and have done lots of bookcover art. For the benefit of our younger readers who aspire to become professional illustrators, would you take us through the process of been called by an agent and then working with a publisher and the writer of a book. What are the various steps involved?

Well, usually the Agent phones up to tell you a new job is in, but sometimes I just get an e-mail from the art director with the brief who will have checked with the agent as to my availability. Sometimes they send the manuscript, sometimes with an outline of what they would like; sometimes it's just "read the manuscript and come up with ideas". Often I get an outline saying we want this character who looks like this standing in front of such and such with this or that in the background. I then go on to produce a rough or roughs which nowadays is usually a pencil sketch scanned into the computer and coloured in Photoshop. Once the rough is approved, I need to gather around me whatever reference material I need, this may involve getting a model and doing some photography, something I usually look forward to. I then go on to finish the image, hopefully in time to meet the deadline.

Ground Zero, the name seemed like a good idea at the time, before the events in New York. Anyway, I think I was in the right place at the right time. I had started to get recognised for the digital illustration I was doing just as Paper Tiger was bought by Collins Brown, the publisher, and given a new lease on life. They were looking for new artists and I had recently had work published by Harper Collins in the Dick Jude book, Masters of Fantasy Art, a book that contained the work of Don Maitz, Jim Burns, Chris Moore, Alan Lee and John Howe, amongst others. I think the success of this book and my contribution to it led to Paper Tiger asking if I wanted to produce a whole book with them.

Basicaly the book is a retrospective of my work of the last eight years with a few older pieces thrown in for good measure. I was lucky to get some of the authors for whom I've done covers to contribute, so I have Elizabeth Moon, David Brin and Robert Sawyer adding text to the book. My two illustrator pals, Chris Moore and Jim Burns, also contributed and Dick Jude wrote the foreword.

Dick had been approached by Harper Collins to put together a "how to do" book of Fantasy Art. I had met him not long before at one of the British annual Science Fiction conventions, Eastercon, so I was somewhat upper most in his mind when he began contacting artists. He wanted to cover the range form "paint to pixels" as he put it. To that end, the book contains the lyrical water colours of Alan Lee and John Howe, the oil paintings of Don Maitz and Brom, acrylic work by Chris Moore and Jim Burns and digital work by myself and Rick Berry, amongst others.

David Larkin was a big name art director for Pan books in the UK during the late seventies, early eighties. One of my college lectures knew him and suggested I go and see him. My work wasn't up to standard then, but he must have seen something of promise as, inundated with students like myself as he must have been, he saw me several times and encouraged me to improve my work. I think largely because of this encouragement I got myself a part-time job delivering groceries and painted in the afternoon and evenings until finally he gave me my first job. But it was Ken Simms, the art director at Sphere books, long since gone, that introduced me to my agent at that time, the Sarah Brown agency, and things steadily grew from there.

I became aware of computer-generated images about eight years ago. In particular the images produced using Bryce software. I saw the writing on the wall and fearful that I had already been left behind decided to buy a computer. This was a huge leap in the dark as I didn't know my ram from my ROM at the time and had no idea if I would take to it. I remember piling all the boxes filled with the computer in my room, without a clue as to how it all went together. As it happened, far from being left behind I was one of the first, at least in British publishing, to produce the kind of images I had been doing digitally. At that time it was a huge uphill struggle to get the art directors to accept them. Credit has to go to Peter Cotton, the art director at Futura at that time who had the courage to let me finish the David Brin series I was already working on digitally. This look, new to publishing at least, stood me in good stead and for a few years I was the flavour of the month. The look no longer means what it did back then, but I continue to work on the computer because I enjoy the process.

You say that you feared having been left behind with respect to computer manipulationed graphics. That means you must have seen other artists using computers to generate art. Who were these "others"? Did you see a trend toward such electronically produced art already in vogue?

It wasn't that I saw the work of other artists, just images produced in Bryce that were appearing in magazines. These were produced mainly by the programmers and beta testers, although I wasn't really aware of that at the time. I saw the images before Bryce was actually available in the shops. It became apparent to me that the time had come when it was going to be possible to produce my kind of image digitally and I had better get on the bandwagon or be left behind. As it turned out I was ahead of the pack which stood me in good stead in the end.

I first met Chris at the World con in Glasgow sometime back in the early ninties. Chris was a hero of mine, someone whose work I looked up to and emulated. So it was great when I met him and found that he was a really nice guy. He has been of enormous help and encouragement to me and it was he that introduced me to my American agent. I think it's fair to say that meeting Chris Moore changed my life hugely for the better.

At the time I met him I was just embarking down the digital route and tried to persuade Chris that he should do likewise. He was very resistant at first, but I think it eventually dawned on him that it was something he couldn't ignore. Consequently, he came down to see me and I showed him the ropes. I think he still has a love/hate relationship with it but has become very competent and has produced some stunning stuff. It's interesting that when I see a computer-generated image by Chris I still recognise it as one of his immediately. His talent and style has not been subverted by the machine at all, as can sometimes be the case.

Some people have said to me that it does not require much skill to produce art on the computer with such programs as Bryce and others. They say that the computer does it all for you you select colors, lines, etc., and just put the pieces together. What do you think? Does a person have to go to art school before producing good computer-generated graphics or can anyone do it easily, without much art background?

People often speak out of ignorance or prejudice, probably compounded by the amount of bad computer art out there in fairness. Of course, all media, wether it be airbrush, oils or watercolour, has it's bad practioners too. It's very easy to see the difference between those who have simply learned how to use the software and those using the software with a modicom of talent. A comparison I make is with the modern camera. These days they are so sophisticated that almost all the technical know how is no longer needed. The camera takes care of all that, yet people still take bad photographs and of course the same criticisms were leveled at photography when it first appeared. If it's that easy, then everyone should go out and buy a computer and make a good living "easily".

Actually I have both and each have their strengths. Although the advent of the G5 may have shifted the balance, up until recently the PC was much better for 3D and the Mac much better for Photoshop. This is how I use the two. The number of program's available for the Mac or PC is irrelevant to me, as most of the professional packages I use are available for both.

In 2003 you did concept drawings and backgrounds for the animated film by Paramount Pictures and Viacom International entitled, Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius. How much of the artwork did you do? Did you work with other fantasy artists on this project? Were you left the freedom to explore ideas or did they tell you what to draw?

I was amazed when I saw the film how much of what I did actually made it to the screen. The last third of the film, once the kids leave Earth, is the bit I worked on. The city scapes, stadium, the ship Jimmy and his pals escape in, and lots of other incidental details. Very much like a publishing job, they sent me the script and let me get on with it. There is a lot less description in a movie script so it was left pretty well up to me. The only stipulation was that the designs should have some egg reference as the villains, the Yolkians, are egg people. It was great fun. Shortly after that I spent a year and a quarter designing for a children's Sci-Fi series that is still in production, so I can't say anything about it. Hundreds of drawings that I can't show. It's a little frustrating.

I did some costume design in the early stages but these were later superseded by the work of a specialist costume designer. Working for film or tv is a real team effort and it may be that nothing you do gets into the film untouched, it will probably be mixed in with the work of others.

If you walk into a bookshop and look in the Sc--fi section in the UK, it looks healthy until you look closely and realise that most of the covers are three years old. In the UK the trend is to not have science fiction on the covers of science fiction books anymore. They want the books out of the Sci-Fi "ghetto", as they see it .The new science fiction or fantasy is appearing in the mainstream part of the shop with a generic kind of cover so it's difficult to determine what genre it is. To this end, a grainy image bank photo of a stormy sky produced inhouse will do. Mood, rather than content, is the buzzword. If a dark wood conveys a certain mood, lets have a dark wood, even though no dark wood appears in the story. I know some editors and writers who would be more than happy to see the Science fiction section disappear completely. They think that Science fiction is too associated with Star Trek or Star Wars and so isn't taken seriously. The cynic in me sees that they save themselves a lot of money on illustration fees also. It may surprise you to hear (it sure surprised me!) that I've heard the same sentiments expressed by fans at Science fiction conventions whose desire to be taken seriously is no different to anyone else's. These aren't usually the fans in the art show though.

Does this mean illustrators like yourself and other British artists working in the Fantasy, Sci-Fi realm will have to adapt to new markets perhaps even change style altogether in order to make ends meet? Do you see a come back of sorts in the foreseeable future or is this it, doom all around for artists like you? Any hope in sight? How are you fighting against this trend?

Yes, I think it will, there are some artists producing the kind of image they crave, mainly using comped photos in Photoshop, that seem to be doing well. There are a large number who are dead in the water. 99% of my cover work comes from the States at the moment; in particular I have been doing all the Battletech covers for Penguin, Putnam and Whizzkids. I've just finished a cover for Don Puckey at Warner Books. I have also been very fortunate to be able to get some work from film and TV, something I hope is going to continue this year.

That's a good question, although some of my relatives in Sicily are musicians I don't know of any other artistic vein in the family. I really wanted to be a rocket scientist or the first man on the moon, but having a problem with mathematics boarding on a kind of mathematical dyslexia, a Science Fiction illustrator was the next best thing. Seriously, art was the thing that I was good at from an early age. I used to spend all my time drawing and was subverted early on by the Gerry Anderson TV puppet shows along with Dr. Who so naturally I drew Daleks and Thunderbird machines. I suppose looking back it was inevitable.

I went back with my parents twice as a youngster but the last time I was twenty and went with my ex-wife and sister. I love the island and have been to the top of Mount Etna twice and explored the volcanic islands off the coast. I would like to go back one day, when the opportunity arises.